Re: Another LSD killing: "Anatomy Of A Gay Murder"

[glog]

alcohol+lsd.

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

glog wrote:
> alcohol+lsd.

Which I mention in my introduction. Whenever a death involves DXM
abuse and other drugs, I include it on my site. Since this is murder
included alcohol along with LSD abuse, then it is necessary to point out
that other drugs are involved. However, from a harm reduction
standpoint, in the interests of conservatism best to assume the LSD
abuse was primarily responsible.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[ShrikeBack]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message news:<3f24af8c$0$156$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...
> glog wrote:
> > alcohol+lsd.
>
> Which I mention in my introduction. Whenever a death involves DXM
> abuse and other drugs, I include it on my site. Since this is murder
> included alcohol along with LSD abuse, then it is necessary to point out
> that other drugs are involved. However, from a harm reduction
> standpoint, in the interests of conservatism best to assume the LSD
> abuse was primarily responsible.

No it isn't. What you would have to establish is a statistical
correlation, first. If there is no statistical correlation, linking
psychedelics with an increase in the murder rate, then there
certainly is no causal relationship. Of course, a correlation is
not sufficient to establish a causal relationship either. But
if you aren't establishing a correlation, you may as well make a
list of people who drank milk or smoked a pack of Camels before
commiting murder. How many killers drank milk the day before?

You are practicing, in earnest, the superstitious fallacy of
post hoc, ergo propter hoc, carried to a ridiculous extreme.

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

ShrikeBack wrote:
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in
> message
> news:<3f24af8c$0$156$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...
>>
>> Which I mention in my introduction. Whenever a death involves DXM
>> abuse and other drugs, I include it on my site. Since this is murder
>> included alcohol along with LSD abuse, then it is necessary to point
>> out
>> that other drugs are involved. However, from a harm reduction
>> standpoint, in the interests of conservatism best to assume the LSD
>> abuse was primarily responsible.
>
> No it isn't. What you would have to establish is a statistical
> correlation, first. If there is no statistical correlation, linking
> psychedelics with an increase in the murder rate, then there
> certainly is no causal relationship. Of course, a correlation is
> not sufficient to establish a causal relationship either. But
> if you aren't establishing a correlation, you may as well make a
> list of people who drank milk or smoked a pack of Camels before
> commiting murder. How many killers drank milk the day before?
>
> You are practicing, in earnest, the superstitious fallacy of
> post hoc, ergo propter hoc, carried to a ridiculous extreme.

No, you are making the error of using deductive, rather than
inductive, logic. The sort of person who would be seeking out harm
reduction websites about a drug likely are those who are risk averse.
Perhaps highly risk averse. Nobody needs to trip on DXM or LSD. That I
can show evidence that a risk is just reasonably possible (as opposed to
being proven so) may be enough for some people to decide not to use a
drug.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[ShrikeBack]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message news:<3f2f1c42$0$164$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...
> ShrikeBack wrote:
> > "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in
> > message
> > news:<3f24af8c$0$156$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...
> >>
> >> Which I mention in my introduction. Whenever a death involves DXM
> >> abuse and other drugs, I include it on my site. Since this is murder
> >> included alcohol along with LSD abuse, then it is necessary to point
> >> out
> >> that other drugs are involved. However, from a harm reduction
> >> standpoint, in the interests of conservatism best to assume the LSD
> >> abuse was primarily responsible.
> >
> > No it isn't. What you would have to establish is a statistical
> > correlation, first. If there is no statistical correlation, linking
> > psychedelics with an increase in the murder rate, then there
> > certainly is no causal relationship. Of course, a correlation is
> > not sufficient to establish a causal relationship either. But
> > if you aren't establishing a correlation, you may as well make a
> > list of people who drank milk or smoked a pack of Camels before
> > commiting murder. How many killers drank milk the day before?
> >
> > You are practicing, in earnest, the superstitious fallacy of
> > post hoc, ergo propter hoc, carried to a ridiculous extreme.
>
> No, you are making the error of using deductive, rather than
> inductive, logic.

How is that an error?

> The sort of person who would be seeking out harm
> reduction websites about a drug likely are those who are risk averse.
> Perhaps highly risk averse. Nobody needs to trip on DXM or LSD.

There's nothing inherently wrong with trying to convince people
not to do these drugs. However, attempting to assert a connection
with mere examples such as these merely appeals to superstitious
thinking. I have run into people who really believed that Prozac
was a cause of murder as well, merely on the basis of a couple of
news stories. Good luck convincing them otherwise. I think the
damage was irreversible.

> That I
> can show evidence that a risk is just reasonably possible (as opposed to
> being proven so) may be enough for some people to decide not to use a
> drug.

A lot of things are possible. Maybe we could start a list of Reefer
Madness examples too.

You have no evidence that this risk is real. Or do you? Do you
provide some sort of stats about this on your harm reduction site?

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

ShrikeBack wrote:
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in
> message
> news:<3f2f1c42$0$164$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...

>> No, you are making the error of using deductive, rather than
>> inductive, logic.
>
> How is that an error?

The issue is whether it is just more likely.

>> The sort of person who would be seeking out harm
>> reduction websites about a drug likely are those who are risk averse.
>> Perhaps highly risk averse. Nobody needs to trip on DXM or LSD.
>
> There's nothing inherently wrong with trying to convince people
> not to do these drugs. However, attempting to assert a connection
> with mere examples such as these merely appeals to superstitious
> thinking. I have run into people who really believed that Prozac
> was a cause of murder as well, merely on the basis of a couple of
> news stories. Good luck convincing them otherwise. I think the
> damage was irreversible.

I only present these as anecdotal cases. I haven't gone so far as
saying there is a proven link between abuse of DXM or LSD and murder.

>> That I
>> can show evidence that a risk is just reasonably possible (as
>> opposed to
>> being proven so) may be enough for some people to decide not to use a
>> drug.
>
> A lot of things are possible. Maybe we could start a list of Reefer
> Madness examples too.
>
> You have no evidence that this risk is real. Or do you? Do you
> provide some sort of stats about this on your harm reduction site?

I present such as anecdotal cases, without any claims of statistical
frequency.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[ShrikeBack]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski"wrote
> ShrikeBack wrote:
> > "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote:

> >> No, you are making the error of using deductive, rather than
> >> inductive, logic.
> >
> > How is that an error?
>
> The issue is whether it is just more likely.

And then you wrote:

> I only present these as anecdotal cases. I haven't gone so far as
> saying there is a proven link between abuse of DXM or LSD and murder.

So of what value is it?

> > You have no evidence that this risk is real. Or do you? Do you
> > provide some sort of stats about this on your harm reduction site?
>
> I present such as anecdotal cases, without any claims of statistical
> frequency.

I thought the issue was "whether it is just more likely". That sounds
like a claim of statistical frequency to me.

[Reach The Sky]

"ShrikeBack" <hewpiedawg@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:59b8bc96.0308062054.4158e5ce@posting.google.c om...
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
news:<3f31086f$0$167$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...
> > ShrikeBack wrote:
> > > "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski"wrote
> >
> > >> I only present these as anecdotal cases. I haven't gone so far as
> > >> saying there is a proven link between abuse of DXM or LSD and murder.
> > >
> > > So of what value is it?
> >
> > Evidence of a possible link. Just because it can't yet be proven
> > doesn't mean that people should not know of the possible connection.
>
> But not only is proof lacking in such anecdotal examples, so is
> evidence. There were 18,209 murders in the US back in 1997. I
> doubt it has dropped too much since then. So I am sure I can
> find some murders where someone reports they were in a Prozac
> induced haze at the time. "Ely Lilly made me do it!" But such
> reports would not be evidence that Prozac was the cause. In
> fact, I can point to a army of rapists and killers in Liberia
> who are doped up on pot and speed, but it would be absurd to
> claim that was evidence that these were the cause of their
> murders.

You'd better not claim it was related :)

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

ShrikeBack wrote:
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in
> message
> news:<3f31086f$0$167$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...

>> Evidence of a possible link. Just because it can't yet be proven
>> doesn't mean that people should not know of the possible connection.
>
> But not only is proof lacking in such anecdotal examples, so is
> evidence. There were 18,209 murders in the US back in 1997. I
> doubt it has dropped too much since then. So I am sure I can
> find some murders where someone reports they were in a Prozac
> induced haze at the time. "Ely Lilly made me do it!" But such
> reports would not be evidence that Prozac was the cause. In
> fact, I can point to a army of rapists and killers in Liberia
> who are doped up on pot and speed, but it would be absurd to
> claim that was evidence that these were the cause of their
> murders.

The difference is these people are otherwised engaged in warfare. If
an ordinarily peaceful person with no history of violence butchers 10
school children while on a rampage on LSD, it would be reasonable to
suspect the LSD.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[ShrikeBack]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message news:<3f325f2d$0$168$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...
> ShrikeBack wrote:
> > "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in
> > message
> > news:<3f31086f$0$167$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...
>
> >> Evidence of a possible link. Just because it can't yet be proven
> >> doesn't mean that people should not know of the possible connection.
> >
> > But not only is proof lacking in such anecdotal examples, so is
> > evidence. There were 18,209 murders in the US back in 1997. I
> > doubt it has dropped too much since then. So I am sure I can
> > find some murders where someone reports they were in a Prozac
> > induced haze at the time. "Ely Lilly made me do it!" But such
> > reports would not be evidence that Prozac was the cause. In
> > fact, I can point to a army of rapists and killers in Liberia
> > who are doped up on pot and speed, but it would be absurd to
> > claim that was evidence that these were the cause of their
> > murders.
>
> The difference is these people are otherwised engaged in warfare.

Point taken.

> If
> an ordinarily peaceful person with no history of violence butchers 10
> school children while on a rampage on LSD, it would be reasonable to
> suspect the LSD.

The problem is that ordinarily peaceful people with no history of violence
do wind up going postal.

He was a very nice boy.
He used to cut my grass.

-Joe's Garage, Frank Zappa

Millions of individuals have used psychedelics. Does anyone have accurate
figures? Thousands of people are murdered in the absense of psychedelics
every year, in the US alone. I am inclined to think that in the instance
you posted at the start of this thread, the causative factor is more likely
to be mobthink and alcohol than tryptamines, per se. It is very important
to separate out variables such as this, because it is known that alcohol
does indeed contribute to violence.

I don't like Mondays!
I don't like Mondays!
I just want to shoot
The whole day down, down, down,
Shoot 'em all down.

-The Boomtown Rats

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

ShrikeBack wrote:
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in
> message
> news:<3f325f2d$0$168$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...

>> If
>> an ordinarily peaceful person with no history of violence butchers 10
>> school children while on a rampage on LSD, it would be reasonable to
>> suspect the LSD.
>
> The problem is that ordinarily peaceful people with no history of
> violence
> do wind up going postal.

Not I do call these "maybe" cases. Not cases that are for sure.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[ShrikeBack]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@EXECUTESPAMMERSmochamail.com> wrote in message news:<3f34001c$0$165$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...
> ShrikeBack wrote:
> > "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in
> > message
> > news:<3f325f2d$0$168$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.n et>...
>
> >> If
> >> an ordinarily peaceful person with no history of violence butchers 10
> >> school children while on a rampage on LSD, it would be reasonable to
> >> suspect the LSD.
> >
> > The problem is that ordinarily peaceful people with no history of
> > violence
> > do wind up going postal.
>
> Note I do call these "maybe" cases. Not cases that are for sure.

Well, yes, you do admit that. Indeed, in this uncertain universe,
not much is "for sure". The house is now taking bets on the
proposition "god plays dice with the universe." However, you are
also wrong to even claim that these examples count as evidence.
You mentioned that you were trying to counter the psychedelic
idealists. I suppose if you were trying to counter some proposition
that LSD prevented murder in all cases, you'd have something. I
don't think too many people believe that one, anyway, though.