****LSD News: Woman pleads guilty to killing husband with LSD****

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

THIS one really is interesting. A 47 year old woman laced her 61
year old husband's Jell-O with LSD, causing him to have a heart attack.
What we have here is a fatality that was directly caused by ingestion of
LSD without trauma. A direct toxicity death case, and not a behavioral
toxicity one. I only know of one other death from LSD like this; that
being that overdose case that involved ingesting a massive dose of LSD.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/02-99/02-19-99/a03lo018.htm

Plea bargain in Westport Jell-O murder case

By David Rising, Standard-Times staff writer

NEW BEDFORD -- Christina Martin walked out of Superior Court a free
woman yesterday morning, after pleading guilty to killing her live-in
boyfriend with strawberry Jell-O laced with LSD in exchange for a
sentence of 8½-years of time already served.
Inside the court, the 47-year-old Westport woman told Judge John A.
Tierney she was guilty of manslaughter in the 1990 death of Richard
Alfredo.

Outside, however, Ms. Martin proclaimed her innocence.
"I feel wonderful but it was tough (to plead guilty)," Ms. Martin said
on the courtroom steps.
"But I had to do it to get the plea bargain. I didn't want to take the
chance, not even a 1 percent chance, that I may go back to prison."
Mr. Alfredo's widow, Dorothy Alfredo, and his daughter, Elizabeth
Avila, both refused comment after the sentence was handed down.
Ms. Alfredo and her husband had separated some time before the man's
death.
Prosecutor Walter Shea said Mr. Alfredo's family was disappointed, but
felt the plea bargain was necessary.
"One thing they did not want was a not guilty at trial," Mr. Shea said.
"That would have been horrible to them."
Ms. Martin was convicted in 1992 of first-degree murder, but that
verdict was overturned by Superior Court Judge Gordon Doerfer in 1997,
after attorney Kevin J. Mahoney argued the woman had been inadequately
represented by her original attorney, and that the state had withheld
key evidence.
Judge Doerfer's ruling was upheld in July 1998 by the Supreme Judicial
Court, and a retrial was scheduled for March 24.
In August 1998, the Committee for Public Counsel Services told Mr.
Mahoney it was going to transfer the case to a more seasoned attorney
for the retrial. Instead of handing the case over, however, Mr. Mahoney
agreed to continue representing Ms. Martin for free.
"I don't really have much faith in the system, but I have faith in my
attorney," she said of the nine-year ordeal. "Without him I'd still be
in (MCI) Framingham."
Mr. Mahoney said he had been looking forward to going to trial to prove
his client's innocence, but didn't want to have to rely on the
unpredictable jury system.
"I would have liked to have exposed the shoddiness of their evidence
and have had Ms. Martin found innocent, but this is not the first person
in Massachusetts to plead guilty to stay out of jail," Mr. Mahoney said.
In pleading guilty, Ms. Martin admitted to the facts of the case as
outlined by Mr. Shea in court.
According to the assistant district attorney, if the case had gone to
trial, several neighborhood teen-agers would have testified that Ms.
Martin and her daughter, Teasha Pauline, purchased what they thought
were drugs multiple times for the express purpose of killing Mr.
Alfredo.
The man was allegedly molesting Ms. Pauline, then 14, and the two
thought the drugs would cause his already weak heart to give out.
Mr. Shea said Ms. Pauline and Ms. Martin bought eight tablets of what
they thought was mescaline, and turned out to be LSD, then ground up the
pills into a dust.
Mr. Shea said Ms. Pauline put the powder into Mr. Alfredo's red
strawberry Jell-O, and the drugs caused a heart attack in the
61-year-old man.
Ms. Martin was charged with murder under the joint-venture principle,
but Ms. Pauline was never charged.
"The judgment was made nine or 10 years ago that Ms. Martin was the
motivating force," Mr. Shea said.
Ms. Pauline now lives outside Massachusetts, and was not present at
yesterday's proceedings.
Mr. Alfredo's death had originally been ascribed to natural causes, and
it wasn't until police received calls that the two women had plotted to
kill him that the body was exhumed and tissue samples were taken.
Those samples were found to contain traces of LSD.
In overturning Ms. Martin's original conviction, Judge Doerfer wrote
that the samples taken from Mr. Alfredo could have been contaminated,
and the man could just as easily have died from natural causes.
After agreeing to the facts as presented by Mr. Shea and pleading
guilty to manslaughter, Judge Tierney sentenced Ms. Martin to the 8½
years she had already served in prison, and 10 years probation.
Ms. Martin, who is still living in the Greater New Bedford area, said
now she just wants to put the whole ordeal behind her.
"I haven't really made any plans yet," she said.
"I'm just going to take it day by day."

[Frederick Burroughs]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
>
> A direct toxicity death case, and not a behavioral
> toxicity one.

Not necessarily. The man may have had heart disease, and an
LSD-induced panic attack/bad trip could've triggered the heart attack.


--
The lock upon my garden gate's a snail, that's what it is.

-Donovan's prescient response to homeland security.

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

Frederick Burroughs wrote:
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
>>
>> A direct toxicity death case, and not a behavioral
>> toxicity one.
>
> Not necessarily. The man may have had heart disease, and an
> LSD-induced panic attack/bad trip could've triggered the heart attack.

The way this is looked at is the toxicity of the LSD caused the panic
attack, which caused the heart attack, and therefore the toxicity of the
LSD killed him. This is the why of the murder charge. Note also I used
the term "direct toxicity death" rather than "overdose death." The
evidence indeed was that it was an LSD-induced panic attack/bad trip
that triggered the heart attack, and this wasn't a gross overdose.
Still, the LSD is what killed him.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[Frederick Burroughs]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
>
> Frederick Burroughs wrote:
> > "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
> >>
> >> A direct toxicity death case, and not a behavioral
> >> toxicity one.
> >
> > Not necessarily. The man may have had heart disease, and an
> > LSD-induced panic attack/bad trip could've triggered the heart attack.
>
> The way this is looked at is the toxicity of the LSD caused the panic
> attack, which caused the heart attack, and therefore the toxicity of the
> LSD killed him. This is the why of the murder charge. Note also I used
> the term "direct toxicity death" rather than "overdose death." The
> evidence indeed was that it was an LSD-induced panic attack/bad trip
> that triggered the heart attack, and this wasn't a gross overdose.
> Still, the LSD is what killed him.

I have no doubt an LSD panic attack can be dangerous for someone with
a serious heart condition. But, to blame it on toxicity is a
stretch. The damage to the heart muscle wasn't due to any LSD
toxicity. The physical stress that caused the heart attack may be the
result of psychological stress brought on by the LSD.


--
The lock upon my garden gate's a snail, that's what it is.

-Donovan's prescient response to homeland security.

[Frederick Burroughs]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
>
> The way this is looked at is the toxicity of the LSD caused the panic
> attack, which caused the heart attack, and therefore the toxicity of the
> LSD killed him.

Psychological toxicity?


--
The lock upon my garden gate's a snail, that's what it is.

-Donovan's prescient response to homeland security.

[glog]

Once upon a timeless moment,
Frederick Burroughs <riburr@shentel.net> hallucinated:
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
>>
>> Frederick Burroughs wrote:
>> > "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
>>
>> >> The way this is looked at is the toxicity of the LSD caused the
>> >> panic attack, which caused the heart attack, and therefore the
>> >> toxicity of the LSD killed him. This is the why of the murder
>> >> charge. Note also I used the term "direct toxicity death" rather
>> >> than "overdose death." The evidence indeed was that it was an
>> >> LSD-induced panic attack/bad trip that triggered the heart attack,
>> >> and this wasn't a gross overdose. Still, the LSD is what killed him.
>> >
>> > I have no doubt an LSD panic attack can be dangerous for someone with
>> > a serious heart condition. But, to blame it on toxicity is a
>> > stretch. The damage to the heart muscle wasn't due to any LSD
>> > toxicity. The physical stress that caused the heart attack may be the
>> > result of psychological stress brought on by the LSD.
>>
>> And, psychological stress results from toxicity of LSD on the brain.
>> Looked at medically, what around here is called "tripping" medically is
>> the manifestation of the toxic effects of LSD on the brain. Remember,
>> being high is called being "intoxicated".
>
> Then say "stress related to LSD intoxication," not "direct toxicity
> death case." You open yourself to misinterpretation. My immediate
> thought was the deceased had been given a hugh quantity of LSD. Also,
> it would be more accurate to say tripping is the manifestation of the
> "intoxicating" effects of LSD on the brain, since this is one of the
> generally accepted definitions of the word.
>
>

In other words, if someone diabetic eats a jelly donut, and gives him
a sugar high, which causes and altered state resembling mental
illness, which gives him a panic attack, which causes his heart to
crap out on him, its a "jelly donut toxicity death".

[Decussation of pyra]

TOXICITY refers to the degree to which a substance is poisonous. A poison is
a substance that irritates, damages or impairs the activity of the body's
tissues. All substances act as poisons in large enough amounts. A "toxic"
dose of LSD is several tens of thousands as much as a normal dose, making it
one of the safest drugs known. Therefore it was the normal effects of the
LSD, not the toxicity, which caused the panic attack & heart attack.



"Frederick Burroughs" <riburr@shentel.net> wrote in message
news:3F21FB19.DA594FA8@shentel.net...
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
> >
> > The way this is looked at is the toxicity of the LSD caused the panic
> > attack, which caused the heart attack, and therefore the toxicity of the
> > LSD killed him.
>
> Psychological toxicity?
>
>
> --
> The lock upon my garden gate's a snail, that's what it is.
>
> -Donovan's prescient response to homeland security.

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

glog wrote:

> In other words, if someone diabetic eats a jelly donut, and gives him
> a sugar high, which causes and altered state resembling mental
> illness, which gives him a panic attack, which causes his heart to
> crap out on him, its a "jelly donut toxicity death".

Since jelly donuts are consider foods and not a drug of abuse (which
are ordinarily considered toxic), it wouldn't be called toxicity.
However, in the above the death clearly is a death caused by an adverse
reaction to eating a jelly donut. Deaths all the time are blamed on
foods. Think particularly of allergy cases.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

Frederick Burroughs wrote:
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:

>> And, psychological stress results from toxicity of LSD on the
>> brain. Looked at medically, what around here is called "tripping"
>> medically is the manifestation of the toxic effects of LSD on the
>> brain. Remember, being high is called being "intoxicated".
>
> Then say "stress related to LSD intoxication," not "direct toxicity
> death case." You open yourself to misinterpretation. My immediate
> thought was the deceased had been given a hugh quantity of LSD.

Which is why I posted the entire story, so the dose would be know by
all reading. The fact that the dose wasn't that large in fact is
significant. This is a case of LSD killing even in rather low doses. I
in fact made sure not to use the word "overdose" in my post.

> Also,
> it would be more accurate to say tripping is the manifestation of the
> "intoxicating" effects of LSD on the brain, since this is one of the
> generally accepted definitions of the word.

That would be acceptable. In this specific case, using toxic seems
best, since the effect of the drug was to cause death. IOW, if you live
the experience was intoxicating; and if the drug kills you it was toxic.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

Decussation of pyra wrote:
> TOXICITY refers to the degree to which a substance is poisonous. A
> poison is a substance that irritates, damages or impairs the activity
> of the body's tissues. All substances act as poisons in large enough
> amounts. A "toxic" dose of LSD is several tens of thousands as much
> as a normal dose, making it one of the safest drugs known. Therefore
> it was the normal effects of the LSD, not the toxicity, which caused
> the panic attack & heart attack.

No.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=%22behavioral+toxicity%22

Take a look at that SERP. "Behavioral toxicity" is a commonly used
phrase in medicine.

http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2809.htm

"Toxicity, Hallucinogens - LSD

....

"Generally, LSD-related deaths result from behavioral toxicity. An LSD
user, for instance, was killed when he attempted to stop a train
barehanded. The extreme agitation of a bad trip has been known to lead
to suicide or to accidental death as users have tried to flee from their
hallucinations."

You may not like the way medicine uses the term "toxicity", but
attempting to stop a train barehanded on LSD is called a LSD "behavioral
toxicity" death. Doctors really do use the term this way.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[Decussation of pyra]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
news:3f229bee$0$167$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...

> You may not like the way medicine uses the term "toxicity", but
> attempting to stop a train barehanded on LSD is called a LSD "behavioral
> toxicity" death. Doctors really do use the term this way.


Exactly ! Thus proving you wrong (you had originally stated that "What we
have here is a fatality that was directly caused by ingestion of LSD without
trauma. A direct toxicity death case, and not a behavioral toxicity one.").

Now you reverse the case and say it is behavioural toxicity. Quite different
to directy toxicity, I think you'll agree.

[michael]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 18:54:26 +0100, "Decussation of pyra"
<danhackley@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
>news:3f229bee$0$167$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...
>
>> You may not like the way medicine uses the term "toxicity", but
>> attempting to stop a train barehanded on LSD is called a LSD "behavioral
>> toxicity" death. Doctors really do use the term this way.

Dr. Golaszewski at the daily planet.

>
>
>Exactly ! Thus proving you wrong (you had originally stated that "What we
>have here is a fatality that was directly caused by ingestion of LSD without
>trauma. A direct toxicity death case, and not a behavioral toxicity one.").
>
>Now you reverse the case and say it is behavioural toxicity. Quite different
>to directy toxicity, I think you'll agree.
>

It is difficult to get rfg to agree to anything.

[Decussation of pyra]

I don't understand why you introduce the concept of behavioural toxicity, as
it is irrelevant in this discussion. You are deviating from the original
argument, which was whether this gentleman died of LSD toxicity or not. True
he did not die from behavioural toxicity, as the death did not result from
any particular behaviour on his part. Nor did he die from direct toxicity of
the drug (as you pointed out, this was not an "overdose"). The cause of
death in this case is simply a myocardial infarction, precipitated by the
emotional stress of ingesting LSD.




"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
news:3f22c52e$0$166$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...
> Decussation of pyra wrote:
> > "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3f229bee$0$167$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...
> >
> >> You may not like the way medicine uses the term "toxicity", but
> >> attempting to stop a train barehanded on LSD is called a LSD
> >> "behavioral toxicity" death. Doctors really do use the term this way.
> >
> > Exactly ! Thus proving you wrong (you had originally stated that
> > "What we have here is a fatality that was directly caused by
> > ingestion of LSD without trauma. A direct toxicity death case, and
> > not a behavioral toxicity one.").
> >
> > Now you reverse the case and say it is behavioural toxicity. Quite
> > different to directy toxicity, I think you'll agree.
>
> No, you don't understand. Doctors use the word "toxicity" in ways
> that the ordinary person wouldn't. Including even just behavior. I just
> used this as an example. This case involves LSD, which has no
> therapeutic use, and is merely a drug of abuse. There is no "normal"
> dose of LSD as far as medicine is concerned. Thus, all deaths from LSD
> *must* be due to some sort of toxicity. In this case, direct rather than
> behavioral toxicity.
> --
> http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
> For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
>
>

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

Decussation of pyra wrote:
> I don't understand why you introduce the concept of behavioural
> toxicity, as it is irrelevant in this discussion.

I'll concede that was confusing.

> You are deviating
> from the original argument, which was whether this gentleman died of
> LSD toxicity or not. True he did not die from behavioural toxicity,
> as the death did not result from any particular behaviour on his
> part. Nor did he die from direct toxicity of the drug (as you pointed
> out, this was not an "overdose"). The cause of death in this case is
> simply a myocardial infarction, precipitated by the emotional stress
> of ingesting LSD.

Right. He died of myocardial infarction, precipitated by the
emotional stress of ingesting LSD. This stress was due to the toxic
effects of LSD. If ingesting any chemical causes undesirable effects on
the body, that is called a toxic effect. Emotional or physical stress is
an undesirable effect. The parallel with behavioral toxicity is:

Behavioral toxicity:
drug --> causes dangerous behavior --> which causes death

Physical toxicity (in this specific case):
drug --> causes emotional or physical stress --> which causes death

Physical toxicity can also include gross overdose, etc. All LSD
deaths have to be in one of the 2 categories above. Since the guy died
of a heart attack rather than doing something stupid while high on it,
it is a physical toxicity death.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[Decussation of pyra]

Glad we got that cleared up. However;

> If ingesting any chemical causes undesirable effects on the body, that is
called a toxic effect.

You are confusing this with the term "side-effect", which denotes the
effects described above. A description of a side-effect may be "a result of
drug or other therapy in addition to or in extension of the desired
therapeutic effect, usually undesirable".

A toxic effect is a literally a poisonous effect. For example oxygen may
become toxic if breathed at high pressures, causing sensory and other
abnormalities. Cyanide is toxic at even low levels.

LSD only becomes "toxic" at dosages many times the average dose. At doses
below this threshold, unwanted effects such as sweating, nausea or fear are
not due to toxicity; rather they are side-effects (but I agree that since
this a non-therapeutic drug, these terms have little meaning).





"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
news:3f22ce34$0$159$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...
> Decussation of pyra wrote:
> > I don't understand why you introduce the concept of behavioural
> > toxicity, as it is irrelevant in this discussion.
>
> I'll concede that was confusing.
>
> > You are deviating
> > from the original argument, which was whether this gentleman died of
> > LSD toxicity or not. True he did not die from behavioural toxicity,
> > as the death did not result from any particular behaviour on his
> > part. Nor did he die from direct toxicity of the drug (as you pointed
> > out, this was not an "overdose"). The cause of death in this case is
> > simply a myocardial infarction, precipitated by the emotional stress
> > of ingesting LSD.
>
> Right. He died of myocardial infarction, precipitated by the
> emotional stress of ingesting LSD. This stress was due to the toxic
> effects of LSD. If ingesting any chemical causes undesirable effects on
> the body, that is called a toxic effect. Emotional or physical stress is
> an undesirable effect. The parallel with behavioral toxicity is:
>
> Behavioral toxicity:
> drug --> causes dangerous behavior --> which causes death
>
> Physical toxicity (in this specific case):
> drug --> causes emotional or physical stress --> which causes death
>
> Physical toxicity can also include gross overdose, etc. All LSD
> deaths have to be in one of the 2 categories above. Since the guy died
> of a heart attack rather than doing something stupid while high on it,
> it is a physical toxicity death.
> --
> http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
> For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
>
>

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

Decussation of pyra wrote:
> Glad we got that cleared up. However;
>
>> If ingesting any chemical causes undesirable effects on the body,
>> that is called a toxic effect.
>
> You are confusing this with the term "side-effect", which denotes the
> effects described above. A description of a side-effect may be "a
> result of drug or other therapy in addition to or in extension of the
> desired therapeutic effect, usually undesirable".
>
> A toxic effect is a literally a poisonous effect. For example oxygen
> may become toxic if breathed at high pressures, causing sensory and
> other abnormalities. Cyanide is toxic at even low levels.
>
> LSD only becomes "toxic" at dosages many times the average dose. At
> doses below this threshold, unwanted effects such as sweating, nausea
> or fear are not due to toxicity; rather they are side-effects (but I
> agree that since this a non-therapeutic drug, these terms have little
> meaning).

The problem is just that fact that LSD has no recognized therapeutic
uses. Thus, all effects are just considered low level toxicity. In the
case of this poor bugger, because of other health problems this was
enough to kill him. Medicine really does use "toxicity" this way. The
reason is that for medicine, everything other than food or therapeutic
drugs that is ingested can be just considered "poisons." Some are so
non-toxic that the amount someone would need to consume to be fatal is
astronomical. In the case of this poor guy, a fatally poisonous amount
of LSD was very low.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[Decussation of pyra]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
news:3f22f727$0$167$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...

> The problem is just that fact that LSD has no recognized therapeutic
> uses. Thus, all effects are just considered low level toxicity.

Yes, that is the problem. In a medical context the drug may be classified as
a toxin; but this is exactly because there is no medical use for it and
therefore there is no other way it can be described. Using the true
definition and meaning of the word "toxin" however, the effects of this drug
would not be considered toxic. The fact that medicine would describe it as a
toxin does not alter this truth.

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

Decussation of pyra wrote:
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
> news:3f22f727$0$167$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...
>
>> The problem is just that fact that LSD has no recognized
>> therapeutic uses. Thus, all effects are just considered low level
>> toxicity.
>
> Yes, that is the problem. In a medical context the drug may be
> classified as a toxin; but this is exactly because there is no
> medical use for it and therefore there is no other way it can be
> described. Using the true definition and meaning of the word "toxin"
> however, the effects of this drug would not be considered toxic. The
> fact that medicine would describe it as a toxin does not alter this
> truth.

It is more of a matter of learning exactly how medicine uses words.
When words are used commonly by lay people and medicine, often there is
a difference in meaning and usage.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2ct7/2ct7_death1.shtml

"The ME's report rules it a "2C-T-7 Overdose", with signs of pulmonary
(lung) edema and abrasion of the tongue (possibly indicating involuntary
convulsions, but also could indicate simple intoxicated tongue biting)."

If Walkaway is around almost surely he'll jump in. This is definitely
an abuse case where 2C-T-7 is involved. However, the coroner ruled it an
*overdose*. When in comes to illegal drug, if you take them and then
drop dead without trauma being involved, commonly this will just be
classified an overdose. No need to worry about mechanism of death, etc.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[Decussation of pyra]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
news:3f2308a2$0$156$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...

> It is more of a matter of learning exactly how medicine uses words.
> When words are used commonly by lay people and medicine, often there is
> a difference in meaning and usage.

I thought the issue here was the cause of death of this individual, not
exactly how medicine uses words ! At least we have come to an agreement, in
a roundabout way, that although the gentleman did not die of a direct
damaging effect of the drug, medicine would still call this a toxic effect.




>
> http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2ct7/2ct7_death1.shtml
>
> "The ME's report rules it a "2C-T-7 Overdose", with signs of pulmonary
> (lung) edema and abrasion of the tongue (possibly indicating involuntary
> convulsions, but also could indicate simple intoxicated tongue biting)."
>
> If Walkaway is around almost surely he'll jump in. This is definitely
> an abuse case where 2C-T-7 is involved. However, the coroner ruled it an
> *overdose*. When in comes to illegal drug, if you take them and then
> drop dead without trauma being involved, commonly this will just be
> classified an overdose. No need to worry about mechanism of death, etc.
> --
> http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
> For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
>
>

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

Decussation of pyra wrote:
> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
> news:3f2308a2$0$156$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...
>
>> It is more of a matter of learning exactly how medicine uses
>> words. When words are used commonly by lay people and medicine,
>> often there is a difference in meaning and usage.
>
> I thought the issue here was the cause of death of this individual,
> not exactly how medicine uses words !

Medicine gets to decide the words used to describe causes of death.
When looking over death records, it is important to know what the
nuances are of terms like "overdose."

> At least we have come to an
> agreement, in a roundabout way, that although the gentleman did not
> die of a direct damaging effect of the drug, medicine would still
> call this a toxic effect.

Right. Put it the most common layman's terms, they'd say LSD killed
this guy by giving him a heart attack.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[Decussation of pyra]

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@mochamail.com> wrote in message
news:3f231e13$0$171$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreen ews.net...

> Right. Put it the most common layman's terms, they'd say LSD killed
> this guy by giving him a heart attack.

Yep. Which is a shame, since the drug was only a precipitant of this state
of affairs, the adverse mental reaction acting syngergistically with his
preexisting heart disease to bring forth this unwelcome outcome. Shows its
always good to look into things.

I'm going to Amsterdam for a short week tomorrow so wont be able to read any
more posts till I'm back. Keep up the good work !

Dan

[Catfish]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:11:02 GMT, glog <be@here.now> wrote:

>Once upon a timeless moment,
>Frederick Burroughs <riburr@shentel.net> hallucinated:
>> "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
>>>
>>> Frederick Burroughs wrote:
>>> > "rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
>>>
>>> >> The way this is looked at is the toxicity of the LSD caused the
>>> >> panic attack, which caused the heart attack, and therefore the
>>> >> toxicity of the LSD killed him. This is the why of the murder
>>> >> charge. Note also I used the term "direct toxicity death" rather
>>> >> than "overdose death." The evidence indeed was that it was an
>>> >> LSD-induced panic attack/bad trip that triggered the heart attack,
>>> >> and this wasn't a gross overdose. Still, the LSD is what killed him.
>>> >
>>> > I have no doubt an LSD panic attack can be dangerous for someone with
>>> > a serious heart condition. But, to blame it on toxicity is a
>>> > stretch. The damage to the heart muscle wasn't due to any LSD
>>> > toxicity. The physical stress that caused the heart attack may be the
>>> > result of psychological stress brought on by the LSD.
>>>
>>> And, psychological stress results from toxicity of LSD on the brain.
>>> Looked at medically, what around here is called "tripping" medically is
>>> the manifestation of the toxic effects of LSD on the brain. Remember,
>>> being high is called being "intoxicated".
>>
>> Then say "stress related to LSD intoxication," not "direct toxicity
>> death case." You open yourself to misinterpretation. My immediate
>> thought was the deceased had been given a hugh quantity of LSD. Also,
>> it would be more accurate to say tripping is the manifestation of the
>> "intoxicating" effects of LSD on the brain, since this is one of the
>> generally accepted definitions of the word.
>>
>>
>
>In other words, if someone diabetic eats a jelly donut, and gives him
>a sugar high, which causes and altered state resembling mental
>illness, which gives him a panic attack, which causes his heart to
>crap out on him, its a "jelly donut toxicity death".
>

I think it's called Jelliosis.

[Humuhumunukunukuapuaa]

thedexyweather@hotmail.com (Karl Malone) wrote in message news:<adbc2bb8.0308141410.5bedbf1e@posting.google.com>...
> Catfish say:
>
> > I think it's called Jelliosis.
>
> Karl Malone say:
>
> I think it's delicious like Robert.



Yes, little brown ring of delight.

You go!, Karl Malone.

[Karl Malone]

Robert say:
> Since jelly donuts are consider foods and not a drug of abuse (which
> are ordinarily considered toxic), it wouldn't be called toxicity.
> However, in the above the death clearly is a death caused by an adverse
> reaction to eating a jelly donut. Deaths all the time are blamed on
> foods. Think particularly of allergy cases.

Robert, your fat ass would know.

Who fucking cares about *doughnut* toxicity?

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

Karl Malone wrote:
> Robert say:
>> Since jelly donuts are consider foods and not a drug of abuse
>> (which are ordinarily considered toxic), it wouldn't be called
>> toxicity. However, in the above the death clearly is a death caused
>> by an adverse reaction to eating a jelly donut. Deaths all the time
>> are blamed on foods. Think particularly of allergy cases.
>
> Robert, your fat ass would know.
>
> Who fucking cares about *doughnut* toxicity?

People who eat donuts. People who eat donuts, but don't use
psychedelics, would care more about donut toxicity than the toxicity of
jelly donuts.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.

[rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski]

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski wrote:
> Karl Malone wrote:
>> Robert say:
>>> Since jelly donuts are consider foods and not a drug of abuse
>>> (which are ordinarily considered toxic), it wouldn't be called
>>> toxicity. However, in the above the death clearly is a death caused
>>> by an adverse reaction to eating a jelly donut. Deaths all the time
>>> are blamed on foods. Think particularly of allergy cases.
>>
>> Robert, your fat ass would know.
>>
>> Who fucking cares about *doughnut* toxicity?
>
> People who eat donuts. People who eat donuts, but don't use
> psychedelics, would care more about donut toxicity than the toxicity
> of jelly donuts.

Should be "would care more about donut toxicity than the toxicity of
psychotomimetic drugs."
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.